Curse

Cherno · Mar 23, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Good point on shooting around/through walls with rangers, but in PvE this is very very rarely ever been a problem.

Sure you might miss more often as a ranger because you have to factor in flight time, but I have been more consistently successfull as an interrupter on my ranger than my mesmer. But I still get a thrill out of a well shutdown enemy.

LightningHell · Mar 23, 2006, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Actually, I do play quite a lot of mesmer, but nobody notices

In PvE of course

Minus Sign · Mar 23, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherno

Sure you might miss more often as a ranger because you have to factor in flight time, but I have been more consistently successfull as an interrupter on my ranger than my mesmer. But I still get a thrill out of a well shutdown enemy.

That is a completely contradictory statement. How can you be more consistent if your interupts are missing due to flight time? The only thing that makes my interupts miss is that I a) mess up and hit a spell interupt instead of CoF when interupting a skill or b) its got SpellBreaker on it (there's only so much interupt a single PvE player can do when 4-6 mobs are following the exact same cast chain...then again: Me/E with FCed Malestorm FTW!). PvE, I only have to worry about the later on infusion runs.

Cherno · Mar 23, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

That is a completely contradictory statement. How can you be more consistent if your interupts are missing due to flight time? The only thing that makes my interupts miss is that I a) mess up and hit a spell interupt instead of CoF when interupting a skill or b) its got SpellBreaker on it (there's only so much interupt a single PvE player can do when 4-6 mobs are following the exact same cast chain...then again: Me/E with FCed Malestorm FTW!). PvE, I only have to worry about the later on infusion runs.

It isn't contradictory. I am more successful, more often (consistantly, not perfectly) than on a mesmer because I can interrupt more often, thus raising the averge w/l ratio. Concussion shot is a huge enabler for this though. I also said that you might miss more often, not that you will. If you are a smart interrupter you can factor in your flight times and juding/anticipating foe's actions and knowing their cast times.

The reason I can be more successful interrupting on the ranger is because the skills recharge faster, can have a continuous effect (choking gas, concussion shot) allowing me to block even the short duration spells more often than with my mesmer. With my mesmer, I usually don't load up on full interrupt so I use about 3 and if I use all three up, I have to wait a minimum of 15 seconds to be able to start again. If I miss, or get an anticipitory twitch and cast when they aren't casting then I get to wait again.

Rangers, while having to factor in flight time, can be just as successful if not often moreso.

LightningHell · Mar 23, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

In PvE.

Minus Sign · Mar 23, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

It sounds like you’re using my old interrupt Ranger. Concussion shot to daze the spike mob then, with SQ to improve recharge times, throw CS on a second (and possibly 3rd mob) to apply dazed to multiple castors/skill spammers, with Offering of Blood for Energy Management (maybe something else, Energizing Wind if I'm feeling selfish, but the monk in me loved OoB pre-nerf). Distracting Shot and Choking Gas comprised my (and I assume, your) other 2 interrupt primaries when I wasn’t running mesmer alts to boost that interrupt even higher. Quick shot was a good second Elite (especially while Chocking Gas was up) but then mesmer really started feeling the love because I needed to get my energy back up from all the CS spammage.

Now that we’ve established at least one way that Concussion Shot is such a powerful skill…lets find out why I deleted my Ranger. I’ll even give us shortbow range, so flight-time is minimal when factoring our interrupts. It’s not even a concern.

2 healer types, one of them a boss. 2 nuke/high damage castors. A couple Warrior mobs thrown in to keep things interesting. We’re the main Defensive fighter here, since most group builds (as we all know) are focused on spike. That’s a hard fight, yes, but our interrupt ranger is as good as a mesmer in no small part due to CS.

The first/spike mob is easy; the non-boss healer. A warrior with Flurry can keep its mouth shut, so the target swap is a no brainer. Staying with the dazed spike mob makes you guilty of that semi-cardinal sin I stated in my OP: “I can interrupt, but I’m really a spiker”. No. We’re on Defense, and we’re going to stay on defense, disrupting 2 mobs or at least harassing 3...just like a good mesmer would. The second mob (our boss), we’re using Chocking Gas to soften it up for a lucky second throw of CS too. Now we can’t leave that boss to its own devices, since dazed only works as your interrupt if the target is under attack, just like CG which now needs to be re-applied. That’s 2 seconds that you’re out of action completely while you apply CG. Either way we’re out of the spike group with nothing but the dazed we dropped a while back to show we were ever there…and our secondary target got a few spam spells off in the interim we were taking a knee. We’re also going to need OoB now that our mana is down after that CS and the re-applied CG. SQ too; we need to keep that recharge time down.

Where’s our team? There still on the first mob, still killing it since they have no Ranger spike. We’re also not doing any noticeable damage, but the 2 healer mobs are locked down so it’s all good. We do need to start doing some damage, however, so we start throwing a few arrow spikes (we can’t spam; we’ve only got 1 with a proper interrupt build, seeing as SQ, rez and OoB take up 3 slots to support it, and we’ve left a nasty surprise at the door) from the non-interrupt focus attack skills we have at our disposal.

The rest of the mob group has started targeting our castors, by the way, but that’s our surprise: I’ma give us a lucky Dust Trap and a smart monk to kite them into it so the Warrior types aren’t doing much. The nukes, however, are getting through unopposed.

We’ve been neglecting them, so we swap targets. Pow. Distracting shot and we knock out a skill. A quick swap back to the boss and Chocking Gas is doing its thing (a little late; boss monk got off another spell in the interim, but its consistent overall and there’s not been enough damage caused that the monks are screaming at us. Yet.).

Pow number two! We hit with our CS and we have 2 dazed mobs…for a while. The Spike mob is almost dead, but so is dazed and he’s starting to throw out a few final spells, regenning some of his heal—Mark of Protection! Gotta stop that now or all that work is wasted effort! Swing up bow, cast Concussion Shot (it’s recharged, we’re in good shape)—

ClickCannot use due to insufficient mana.

Skills do recharge consistently…but mana doesn’t. Even with an unnerfed OoB, those 3 pips of energy really start to take a toll when you’re throwing out 15 and 25 mana spells as your primary weapon, even with Expertise maxed out (which has the side effect of reducing Dazed time duration since CS is Marksmanship and Choking Gas with it since we’re not Wilderness Survival nuts). Add to that, your interrupts aren’t doing anything but interrupting, so you have to sacrifice even more mana for that lonely spike skill just to remain an effective member of the group. Your skills are still charging fine, and SQ is cheap enough to spam when needed, as well as Distracting Shot which is now your primary interrupt. OoB will be back up soon, but re-applying dazed with Concussion shot—at half mana now for a skill that will eat all you regain—is not going to happen to both healers.

It was a great build and I enjoyed playing it, but not the best for what you’re doing with it. And my point in this little story isn’t that mesmers aren’t going to miss spells (unless we Echo Migraine and stick to 2 mobs). We’re going to have less downtime and be more effective with each interrupt we bring to the table.

If all mesmer interrupt skills did was interrupt then I’d still be walking through Tyria with bow in hand. But they don’t.

The most powerful spells in the game are powerful because they do 2 things at one time (or they do one thing exceptionally well which tends to get nerf calls). Reversal of Fortune prevents damage and heals at the same time. Situational, it could be a Word of Healing (or a pair of Orisons for 5 mana at 1 quarter second cast). But the situation has to be right. RoF has to be cast in the wake of an incoming nuke. In order for CS to cause dazed, it must first interrupt a spell. In order for Ele AoE spells to hit multiple mobs at the same time, those mobs have to be in that AoE.

The balance to mesmer skills are that they are conditional. In order for Power Drain to suck the mana out of a castor and recharge me at the same time it reduces that mobs overall ability to spellspam, my target has to cast a spell. In order for Power spike to pound as hard as a Flare the mob has to be trying to heal itself.

In all mesmer skills that do 2 things at once, something else has to happen. They interrupt…and spike. They interrupt and regen mana, allowing you to continue casting. Throwing in mesmer support skills like Mantra of Recovery, dropping recharge times from 30 and 15 to 15 and 8 assures mesmers that those spells will always be up (and why its Elite to begin with, since alt professions like Ranger to give mesmers Serpents Quickness and Echo would make us so overpowered on skill recharge that nothing could ever get a cast off).

A ranger making the claim that he can interrupt as well as a mesmer depends on the skill of the mesmers he groups with. More so? Hell no.

EDIT: Thats the lesson I learned Cherno, and one example of the way GWP taught it to me. If you sense any animosity in that lengthy post, please pay it no mind. It wasn't directed at you, if theres any there to start. Its just an old Ranger kicking himself where everyone can see.

Cherno · Mar 23, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

I take no personal attack from it, no worries.

But also consider the typical play, and one which was even said in another thread about being a good caller. A mesmer and usually a ranger heavy in interrupt will ignore called targets.

Now before I start, get all your n00b comments out before writing them down, I am not claiming to be the best or an exemplary tactician, but I move the the game very well in my own manner.

When I go interrupt with a ranger, I typically will not be a spiker and my build is basically nothing like the one you described. My current build on my ranger:
Barrage
DS
SS
CS
Lightning reflexes
Troll Unguent
Something else
Rez

This is an all around balance build. I can attack when facing non-threatening casters or melee groups with barrage (just having barrage does not make me a spiker.) When I come across a troublesome caster or boss, I will stay focused on them. I don't switch around targets unless absolutely necessary and my current is sufficiently shut down for the time being (DS on a Shadow beast's Spiteful in FoW for example, to switch to the other beast momentarily). I don't start spiking. I am still using normal bow attacks from spacebar, but I am always ready to hit with another interrupt, if CS, followed up with lightning reflexes.

My current mesmer build with the same scenario:
Empathy
Energy Burn
Leech Signet
Cry of Frustration
Blackout
3 more skills not important to this discussion.

I face that same caster boss and I have three interrupts to work with. I interrupt all three and then sit there waiting for a recharge. While I recharge, the boss and other caster that I am focusing on is getting spells off because I am waiting much longer than my ranger took to recharge.

Ranger energy costs are not even a consideration in most cases because of high expertise. My ranger is just more effective at accomplishing the primary goal -- stoping the spell/skill from completing.

Mesmers have a ton of other secondary benefits to their interrupts, and those should be considered. They may be able to kill the mob faster, keep it shut down longer due to draining their energy, but they aren't going to get as many interrupts in in a short timeframe as a ranger.

Don't misunderstand, I love my mesmer I just wish they were better at the role they as supposedly the specialists in over another class. Whether they should be thought of as pure interrupt or not, that's what many consider a mesmer to do, even though they do so much more.

Minus Sign · Mar 23, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Just to double check, you’re using Spinal Shivers with an Icy Bow String to spread interrupt over the area, correct (and i'm guessing your "Something else" is typically SQ)? That’s a good build too, though I still preferred Choking Gas for its natural AoE interrupt. Still, I’d hardly call energy loss negligible since you’re now taking a hit from your spammed SS’s every time they connect with a casting mob (which, with Barrage is just about all the time).

I saw something else here though, that I liked: Mesmer potential.

You’re an advanced interrupter. Leech Signet is a great newb player skill because it has a 0 energy cast and potential for regen. I recommend it highly for young mesmers that are learning to interrupt and still aren't comfortable with their own energy management yet. I still use it...just not so much.

You aren’t from the description of your skilluse. Short answer: you’ve outgrown your build. Its time to start throwing in other interrupt spells to compensate for your quicker reflexes and keener eye. The Domination interrupts come to mind, Power Spike specifically for its short recharge time and Power Drain for improved Energy Management. Diversion is your Distracting Shot on a larger scale (with enough FC, you’ll be surprised how quickly you can get it off) and skills like Shame and Guilt are “set and forget” interrupts, allowing you to divert more energy and time to hexes like backfire and Empathy that distribute DoT even further.

Suddenly, instead of everything being just interrupted and one mob on the spike menu, everything is dying or almost dead, with fewer skills capable of casting. And you still at half energy, raring to go.

Skills like Arcane Echo, Echo and Mantra of Recovery really shine in mesmer builds as opposed to the many alt professions that accept them. Since most mesmer interrupters are built to hex and interrupt, the skills increase versatility in longer fights (and spike interrupts). It’s your call. When you want multiple hexes to spam, Echo hexes. When there are going to be a lot of nasty spells floating around, copy an interrupt. All of a sudden you have an extra skill for which ever you need. MoR? Nuff said previous post. And don’t be afraid of SQ and other skills you’ve used from other professions. Necro Rangers have exploded over the last month with spammable minions and easier to manage Spiteful Spirit combos. My own Ele never left home without her own Winter in the latter missions.

Your Ranger build will certainly shut down a few close grouped castors for a while. But the cost is that, once your interrupt spike wanes, they’ll be back…with full mana and all skills intact.

And yes, mesmers won’t have the same 1st time shutdown that a Ranger/interrupter has. Even with spammed Blackouts, we’re only shutting down 1 mob. It’s exactly as you say and as I’ve said about the class. We’re a wear down cast, designed toward total destruction (HP, energy, and skills at the same time).

Cherno · Mar 24, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Well I know there are better interrupt options for my mesmer (I just got to 20 and am preping to do thirsty), but I use the interrupts I chose right now because I was in southern kryta and just did Dunes so I knew I would be facing more warrior/rangers than casters and wanted to put up interrupts that could do both.

Power spike is defintely my favorite, but only works on spells, not skills. I have gotten much better over the last couple of areas with cast and forget targets then switch with things like empathy, switch targets, energy burn, and empathy new target, switch again and throw something like conundrum or prep for interrupts on things like troll unguent or healing sig.

Just for the area, those were the interrupts that suited the area based on what I had available to me.

For my ranger, I didn't use SS or SQ, just what I listed, the other skill is usually whirlling or dryders, some sort of defensive stance. I really do a fine job of keeping a pretty constant vigil with just those three skills and barrage for when I don't need them. I really don't like full blown interrupt builds as you often find yourself useless (quick cast spells are still problematic for mesmers or rangers)

And usually the party is off following the targets while I am taking care of the troublesome caster with interrupts and they aren't all healed up. They are vulnerable waiting for the group to come and work on them.

You're right, negligible wasn't the right word, but I never find myself in an energy crisis or close to it and I still don't know how to make stupid choking gas work. Never seems to do what I think it should be doing.

LightningHell · Mar 24, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Power Block is definitely my favorite, but I have to call it for people to notice.

However, when I play my usualy E/Me up on a Mission, they always thank me for Blocking their Orison. Unless I have a laggy connection, of which the computer doesn't respond until some 1.5 seconds later. *Shifty eyes*

My current Mesmer is like this (People generally like me bringing Hex removal, and I hate that

):

Me/Mo
Fast Casting: 10 +1
Domination: 11 +3 +1
Inspiration: 10 +1

Holy Veil
Leech Signet/Cry of Frustration
Power Drain
Power Block
Arcane Echo
Drain Enchantment/Energy Tap
Shatter Hex
Rebirth

I know, it's not uber, but it's still better than nothing.

I Echo Power Block for constant 1 caster (usually boss) shutdown, plus harassing a second one. I use about 2-3 slots for Energy regain with 2 of them being Interrupts, so I usually don't have problems with Energy. But if there aren't enough Casters, I'm screwed :P

PS. I didn't have time to read all the above posts, forgive me if anything is respoken.

Minus Sign · Mar 24, 2006, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherno

When I go interrupt with a ranger, I typically will not be a spiker and my build is basically nothing like the one you described. My current build on my ranger:
Barrage
DS
SS
CS
Lightning reflexes
Troll Unguent
Something else
Rez...

For my ranger, I didn't use SS or SQ, just what I listed, the other skill is usually whirlling or dryders, some sort of defensive stance...

...I still don't know how to make stupid choking gas work...The reason I can be more successful interrupting on the ranger is because the skills recharge faster, can have a continuous effect (choking gas, concussion shot) allowing me to block even the short duration spells more often than with my mesmer...

Wait a minute now. You're contradicting yourself again. If SS is a simple misrepresentation, please clearify the skill I set in bold in the above quote. And if you aren't using Choking Gas/Spinal Shivers as one of your interupts, are you saying that all your interupt control hinges on just CS and DS? Against slow castors (many 2 and 3 second casts), I'm inclined to agree that a Ranger can hold his own. But against faster casting mobs, just those 2 skills end up missing as often as they hit, and consistence of interupt suffers as a result. Thats my experience.

Choking Gas is sort of like a very small AoE dazed without the condition set in. While that means you interupt with each attack, your target mobs are not slowed in casting and you have to be fairly quick on the draw (so your interupts, again, are not as consistent against faster casting critters). Thats why I gave us shortbow range for my example and Quick Shot as an alternative Elite, for CG's interupt to work at optimum effect and no worries to Dazed whatsoever. CG doesn't work with Barrage because of the Elite's preparation removal so it won't work with the build you described in the second post.

LightningHell · Mar 24, 2006, 10:40 AM // 10:40

I think the SS is Spinal Shivers. I don't think it's Spiteful Spirit...at least I hope so. Any halfwit player would know a player can't have 2 elites on the same skillbar at once.

Minus Sign · Mar 24, 2006, 10:54 AM // 10:54

He may be describing 2 builds in one, since he says he's not using SS at all. Thats why I wanted a clearifier. Or it may be another proffession entirely and not necro at all.

EDIT: I think your hex removal is the main reason why you're "screwed" in non-heavy castor groups. people want hex removal, thats 1 thing, but don't disregard in-game enemies on the whim of a PuG. Grab Empathy instead of Holy Veil next time you play; with AEcho you'll see a big difference...and they can't complain because you still have Shatter Hex.

LightningHell · Mar 24, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Also, I wanted to clarify to Minus Sign that I didn't say Ranger interrupts don't work better, it's just I think Mesmer interrupters need brains, something the average Guild Wars player doesn't have a lot of.

Cherno · Mar 24, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Factions interrupt hechman is a ranger